Rami Malek Is Certifiably Unserious

Rami Malek thought this was going to be a deeply unserious interview. To both our surprise, he was incorrect.

I catch the leading man in his hotel room, freshly offstage from LIVE with Kelly and Mark and newly on the press circuit for his latest thriller, Nuremberg. The film documents the experience of a psychiatrist who faces off with a Nazi war criminal amidst the defining trial of the century, following the surrender of Nazi Germany post-WWII. Naturally, interviews Malek has conducted around the film concern the historical lens, and how the filmmaking process was designed to reinforce the intense atmosphere of the film.

Like with the cells depicted in the films, he explains again to me that "We didn't pull the walls. We wanted to make it as suffocating as possible, so you had two camera operators, two camera assistants, sound, boom, coming up from above."

This rote, necessary junket tidbit comes after we'd spent the hour talking about what might go on his tombstone when he dies, or the rhythmic desire to play pranks on his mom and the memes he sees of himself on the internet. It is not that I meant to conduct such a surprisingly earnest conversation with Malek — an actor included in the definition of impenetrable Hollywood leading men. Instead, after poking and prodding, one catches onto the schism between our spirited banter and the perception outside his hotel room, built up by a career spent doing thrillers and action films.

It also helped to have spies onset of the cover shoot itself, the directive for which was "a serious actor in unserious situations." They spoke, unanimously, of how willing he was to get downright weird.

Perhaps it is the intensity of his passion for the craft and the physicality he brings to it that has led people astray. He says as much himself. "Physicality is part of who I am, and I guess that's maybe why there’s so many memes where I see myself in the corner doing some odd movements." The irony in this is apparent to Malek. Before Nuremberg and Mr. Robot and the intense, Oscar-winning performance of Freddie Mercury, he was once a young actor, fired from the set of his first movie role for being too goofy, taking too big a comedic leap. I gasp, and the smile on his face is knowing. "I don't know if I can say it... Let me think about this. I was fired from [Night at the Museum] because I had watched too much Pirates of the Caribbean and I asked for eyeliner. I said, he's going to be a British dandy, and he's going to come out swinging."

As Malek tells it, director Shawn Levy was nonplussed with his offbeat depiction of mummy Ahkmenrah. I laugh at his winking nod at history, and his eyes light up again in the re-telling. "They were expecting the stereotypical scary mummy. And I just tried to fly against that. And, yeah, I had to fight my way back into that with the help of Ben Stiller actually having my back." I quip that Stiller seems the type to appreciate a big swing, and Malek agrees, saying Stiller's stamp of approval, alongside his performance, was enough to convince the team to give him another shot. And, as it turned out, even the heavens were in his favor. "That was such a highlight of a moment. My first film, and it had just poured down snow in New York... it was kind of magical. There was real snow! We were going to have to fake it with the art department, but most of it was already there."

Malek talks often in our conversation about that urge on the set of Night at the Museum. An urge that has followed him his whole life. It causes him to frequently act out; Malek terrorized his mother as a kid and directors later in life with practical jokes and off-beat acting approaches. Like on the upcoming Ira Sachs pseudo-musical he's in production for, The Man I Love. "You know what I did the other day, on set?" he says, laughing. "I think we were at a point in the day where everybody was a bit tired and we'd been through weeks of pretty aggressive, powerful scenes. Beautiful filmmaking, but it was exhausting to a degree." Instead of walking between his character's marks as prescribed, "It was just a shot of adrenaline, and I did a version of Leo's 'qualuude' walk. I would call it slithery, or drunken, and that could have easily gone the wrong way with the director and cinematographer and heads of department."

I press him on where it comes from inside of him: Is he looking for the laugh, or does it bubble up out of a deeper abyss? "I don't do this for anybody. It just literally jumps out of my skin. And if I was that person, I would hate myself and I would actually try to restrain it." He leans back in his chair and pauses for a moment, fingers steepled in contemplation. Then, he continues: "I was a very, very shy kid. And I don't know what it was, but as soon as the bell rang at school and I could be just with my brother or with family, I'd become more of a lunatic. I think it was the inability to maybe access or harness it properly, or feeling too judged by that."

The contrast in his primal urges, between lunacy and shyness, have lended him an electric onscreen personality that is quite singular amongst his peers. Friend Robert Downey Jr. put it best, in his essay inducting Malek into the Time 100: “Understated and kind, complicated and relatable, and downright mercurial.” Malek's eyes go wide. "I forgot he said that... I'm going to put that on my tombstone. And not that I've ever thought about having something like that on my tombstone, or having a tombstone, or even processed how I might die."

Rami Malek is certifiably unserious, I decide, no matter what those memes might have one believe. From Nuremberg to his fashion arguments with friend "Mrs. P" (aka Miuccia Prada), from stories from backstage at the Met Gala to the secrets of his storied film career, read PAPER's entire cover story with Rami Malek below.

This interview has been edited and condensed.

Hi, how are you? Where are you right now?

I am at a hotel in Tribeca, wink wink, and I just got done doing CBS This Morning, and Kelly and Mark. Mark wasn't there, and it's nice to see her. She reminded me that after the Oscars, I promised her a role on Mr. Robot. And she said it's funny, the amount of people with that euphoria who promise her gifts. She goes, Leo said he's taking me on this yacht somewhere. Never happened. I'm like, I'm so sorry. And then I thought to myself, what else did I promise people?

Does it ever shock you, the things that journalists or personalities that you've interact with remember?

It's hard to keep up with how many people you've talked to over the course of this career. And I suppose there used to be this idea, maybe it's antiquated, that the less you said, the more of a mystery and enigma you could remain. I guess it's just far too difficult in today's world, especially when you want people to go see the things that you've worked on. Seems like a fair trade.

I don't want to say it's harder to get people to go — but the amount of things you're doing to promote projects, does it feel like the intensity of it has increased over the years?

Oh, yeah. And there used to be the days where a film, I think, could sell itself. A certain brand of ‘90s movie star wasn’t going out and doing junkets, and probably that's why some of them still refuse to.

Could you imagine telling a ‘90s star that they’d have to eat hot wings in 25 years to sell their movie?

I remember doing Need for Speed and Aaron Paul was… what was he doing? He was doing some WWF thing to promote the film. And I was like, “Wait, that's taking it one step too far. You don't have to do that.” The hot wings… Hey, I’ll watch it. It's fascinating, but I think there's a limit to it. Do I take myself too seriously? Maybe, perhaps sometimes. But I have found myself opening up to things that my publicist looks at me now and says, really? You would have never. I don't know, why not? Life's short.

The creative direction for the shoot was a serious actor in a very unserious situation. I wanted to start by asking you an unserious question — my own hot wings question, you could say. What was the last meme that you saved in your phone?

Yeah, no, I don't think I've ever saved a meme on my phone ever.

You don't have any memes, GIFs, nothing? You don't save those kinds of things?

I've sent them, but have I saved them? No, I barely look at my phone throughout the day. And this is to the detriment of many people. But I just can't subscribe to this idea that just because something was created, we all now have to have it.

The phone is something that happened to you

I don't become subordinate to this device just because it's created and now everyone can get a hold of you and then you have to just immediately respond back. Now, getting older, I want to be with certain people and with my family and friends, but the fact that just anyone can reach you at a moment's notice and you're expected to respond immediately is... It's still extremely foreign to me. And I just long for the days where you had to memorize somebody's telephone number and put a coin into a telephone, right? Into a payphone. You had to arrange a meeting that way.

So I have to ask, now that you talk about people inflicting the telephone on you. I have a friend who keeps Do Not Disturb on all the time, even when they don't need to not be disturbed. Is that you?

It's me. You've nailed that person.

I got an inkling of that. Because some people find it bad social etiquette, but I think you're probably braver than most people. Because you're saying, this is not a place where you can just come to me all the time. I come to this space of my own choice.

Yes, on my own volition. There’s this weird ad where Ewan McGregor said… I don't remember what it was… for a Priceline or Expedia ad… he goes: “Are you gonna regret not spending more time on your phone?” I was like, that's a clever ad, because it did make me immediately say, “Yep, no thank you.” To be quite honest, I saw Do Not Disturb go on my phone and I just thought, I could turn it off, but it looks really nice on there.

Last unserious question: So you don't have any memes…

No, no, you can ask as many questions as you want. I thought you were going to only ask unserious questions.

Oh, could you imagine? This is an hour of just me asking you about the internet and Do Not Disturb. You don't have any memes saved on your phone, but I did see an old clip of you on Ellen where you referenced the “Hackerman” meme of you. What was the last meme you saw of yourself?

Ooh, that's a good one. What was the last meme I saw? I imagine there's a few on there just because of the unusual faces that I make in life. Should we look at them now together?

I just sent you one. This is my favorite meme that I was thinking about when prepping for this interview. It's from Bald Ann Dowd. It's about Oppenheimer. And it actually really has very little to do with the contents of the movie Oppenheimer or your role in it, but I did save the meme attached when this was posted at the time because it makes me laugh constantly.

That's very good.

Yeah, shout out to Bald Ann Dowd. About the shoot that we just did with you: It was something where afterwards, a lot of the people that worked on it — like our creative director and our stylist — were all struck by how open you were to getting a little bit weird and totally engrossing yourself in the shoot.

It's honestly an extension of who I am when I'm filming. I love to play. I love collaborating more than anything, and whoever has the best idea wins. It's not even a challenge. It's like, let's enjoy the moment we have to create something together. And usually that's when everybody lets their guard down and dives in, and it's almost an “in for a penny, in for a pound” moment with photo shoots, especially one that was this heightened. I was expecting more, to be quite frank.

I've picked up in different interviews that you're drawn to collaboration with other artists. Actors so often get pegged as very singular entities, like the leading man stereotype. But with you, it really does feel like the joy of acting comes from working in a room full of people.

More than anything. I look at it from this perspective: Is everyone on board going to shine? And that goes for the camera assistant who's pulling focus for their cinematographer, anyone in props, anyone in catering, anyone. The third PA who is standing outside waiting for all the actors to arrive in the cold. Sometimes people say, “You overextend yourself, and should just be focused on what you're doing.” But I think it would actually reduce my ability to be as creative and as much of a leader as I like to be on set. I like to play that role. It comes naturally to me.

So it's kind of an odd juxtaposition, where people go, “Oh, he's odd or he's weird.” I guess I am, I wouldn't want it any other way, but someone who I have come to work with recently in my personal life saw me on a photo shoot for the first time and just was blown away. “Whoa, you turn something on that is just insane.” It was insane for them to watch. And I said, “This is just a photo shoot. Wait till we get to set.” And then I sometimes worry, or not worry, I do get concerned about where those two worlds lie, and do they overlap. And I don't know. I was doing voices last night that came to me at 11 p.m. in front of a friend. And I think we were both cracking up. And characters, it's still there. That childhood innocence and inhibition is still there, when you're with the right person.

That's probably where the sense of being so drawn to collaboration comes from. Because when you're with other people, they can pull out of you what you might not be able to pull out of yourself.

I love deep conversations, sure. I love a deep and meaningful conversation, but I'm easily drawn into anything spontaneous and sometimes combustible, and great adventures. A good playlist and a bad idea.

Something that came through — and maybe was coming through for the person you mentioned who saw you on set — was this embodied physicality to your work. Were you always very physical and expressive, even as a kid? Or is that something you discovered through acting?

What came up the other day was the Young Frankenstein blooper reel of Gene Wilder and, forgive me, the actor who's hunched over in that?

Oh my god.

We'll look it up and we'll get it in... Marty Feldman!

Yeah, I'd lose my Letterboxd account if we didn't remember that.

So would I. So we'll both make sure that's in there, quoted perfectly. But I found myself doing that right after watching a blooper reel. And I remember doing that when I was a little kid. Oh, the things I would do to scare my mom physically. You know what I did the other day, on set? I was filming The Man I Love, directed by Ira Sachs. I'm in bed, and I walk out into the restroom. He doesn't like to rehearse the actual dialogue; it's a blocking rehearsal. So everybody comes in and I exit the bed and go to the bathroom.

Well, I think we were at a point in the day where everybody was a bit tired and we'd been through weeks of pretty aggressive, powerful scenes. Beautiful filmmaking, but it was exhausting to a degree. At that moment, it was just a shot of adrenaline, and I did a version of Leo's “qualuude” walk. I would call it slithery, or drunken, and that could have easily gone the wrong way with the director and cinematographer and heads of department. I found myself doing it decently enough to get that laugh without having ever rehearsed it, so I guess that does exist in me.

What else? Physicality is part of who I am, and I guess that's maybe why there’s so many memes where I see myself in the corner doing some odd movements. But when I watched Pirates of the Caribbean so many times, I took on that character so effectively that when I got cast in Night at the Museum, I don't know if you know this, but…

I knew you were in Night at the Museum.

I don't know if I can say it... Let me think about this. I was fired from that film because I had watched too much Pirates of the Caribbean and I asked for eyeliner. I said, he's going to be a British dandy, and he's going to come out swinging. And so I wrapped the mummification cloth around me as if it was a scarf as I came out. And I had a particular character that I created that was definitely probably just far too bold for what they were expecting. They were expecting the stereotypical scary mummy. And I just tried to fly against that. And, yeah, I had to fight my way back into that with the help of Ben Stiller actually having my back.

Yeah, it feels like he would be a fan of a big, bold comedic choice.

I think so. And we were in New York, and I think he recognized that I could improvise with him. And that was such a highlight of a moment. My first film, and it had just poured down snow in New York... it was kind of magical. There was real snow! We were going to have to fake it with the art department, but most of it was already there. And I had enough agency I think to actually start verbally incorporating what I thought were some fun one-liners. I don't know if I was getting a side eye from [Stiller] or a wink, but he was the one who said: “We'll rethink losing him, and bring him back for another audition rather than recasting.” Let me think if we actually share that.

For now, it'll stay between us until you decide. You mentioned scaring your mom earlier. I want to know where that urge comes from for you. Are you looking for the reaction? Are you looking for a laugh? And do you think that that urge, or whatever that impulse is, connects to your desire to be an actor?

My sweet mom is just texting me good morning, only because you were talking about her. “I watched you this morning on CBS. So happy they showed Bohemian. You look great.” What an angel. But, I don't do this for anybody. It just literally jumps out of my skin. And if I was that person, I would hate myself and I would actually try to restrain it. I don't know if I'd hate myself. I'd just be a showman, and I'm not a showman.

It's like a valve that you have to release.

I'm doing it right now and I'm having a fun time doing it with you. Somebody had an article talking about how guarded actors can be when they're being interviewed, and it talked about women mostly because of the salacious things that they would be asked, and of course it seems fair. As I get older, I'm very aware that not everybody's out to get you, man. And I know you're not. So I feel like I can be more open than I have been, though. This has nothing to do with your question. What was your question?

My question was about that urge we were describing. Like you said, it just jumps out of you.

I was a very, very shy kid. And I don't know what it was, but as soon as the bell rang at school and I could be just with my brother or with family, I'd become more of a lunatic. I think it was the inability to maybe access or harness it properly, or feeling too judged by that. I still can't put my finger on it. It goes back to the thing about movement that you had talked about earlier. I remember one of my first jobs. I was like, why is everyone so quiet, and why is everyone so not moving at all and creating a character the way I think one should be created? I was always drawn to Tim Burton and all of those characters that Johnny Depp had created with him.

It reminds me, I think, of what Robert Downey Jr. said in your Time 100 induction. If I'm quoting this correctly: “Understated and kind, complicated and relatable, and downright mercurial.” It does sound like you maybe understand a little bit about yourself, these contrasts between being seen as very serious, but also sometimes having an unserious approach.

I forgot that he said that.

It was a very striking quote when I read it. It immediately went into my brain.

I'm going to put that on my tombstone. And not that I've ever thought about having something like that on my tombstone, or having a tombstone, or even processed how I might die.

Do you have a preferred way to die? That's such a morbid question.

Uh... No, I mean...Without breaking too many personal hearts, I suppose. Without having an impact… the least impactful way I could have on my family and friends.

I want it to be something funny and glamorous at the same time. You know? Something where they would say, oh, of course she would be doing that.

Oh, that's great. That's a much better answer.

Applying makeup, a blow dryer incident, falling in high heels, something of that nature.

Probably because you're much more put together than I am. I think if it was me, that would be kind of the sad truth of, “Oh yeah, that's not a shocker.”

Speaking of lipstick and high heels, one thing that our creative director Jordan mentioned to me when I checked in after the shoot was, “He really knows a lot about fashion in a way that was surprising." How into fashion are you? Are you into the current trends? Do you watch certain designers?

I love it. I love what it does on film. I love how it can create a world that can set a tone for an entire story, especially when you're doing a period piece. I found myself on Oppenheimer, with the small amount of time I had, catching up with my dear old friend Ellen Mirojnick, who is an iconic costume designer who happened to do Need for Speed. We've kept in touch. We were just texting the other day trying to meet for lunch. And Miss Winter was asking me to join Vogue World, which happened recently. She was honoring costume designers, and I thought that was so tremendously important.

I've sat and had arguments with Mrs. P, as I call her, and Raf about how they all have their own opinions about it. I find it fascinating. It is its own art form. And a designer of any kind to me is an artist of the highest skill. So yeah, I take fashion very, very seriously. I appreciate it and I don't think it's frivolous whatsoever. And I enjoy it. I enjoy the way it makes me feel. I enjoy the way it makes other people feel. I enjoy recognizing what someone's trying to say or not trying to say, all their hidden motives.

Do you have any designers that are a staple for you, or any pieces that you return to?

Anthony Vaccarello has been so good to me over the years. That was the design of the suit I got to wear, where all your Oscar memes come from. I almost wanted to give it back. I'm like, what am I doing with this, like shouldn't you guys have this?

Wait, so you don’t give your Oscars suits back?

I think when it's the Oscars, they let you keep that one.

I haven't asked Meryl Streep in a while what she does with all of her dresses.

Who else? Again, Mrs. P, there are some pieces, like the 2013 Prada shoes I will not part with ever. My Kris Van Assche Dior boots I had to buy a second pair of, just to make sure I would have those for the rest of my life. It's the Met Gala look I keep referencing, the red suit. I remember being so gaunt because I took my Mr. Robot role extremely serious. Also, my dad always had great ties and I've kept some of those, and it's nice to see the Yves Saint Laurent logo come back, I will say.

Okay, so you're pro-YSL. I am too, which was a controversial opinion at the time.

I am. I must say I am. Who is... Oh, my God. The new designer of Hermès menswear. Wales Bonner. Those are some iconic pieces that I have now, that I think I'm going to hold on to. I've also bought these Nike 90s that I wore on set, and they were a big hit. I have a Saint Laurent coat that I actually brought to the designer on Nuremberg and said, can you find a way to emulate this without copying it? Because it fits so perfectly. And when something is made that well, I think it's worth the investment if you can, or if you can find a vintage version, it's probably just as good.

It's special to hear someone have so many fashion pieces that they have such love for.

I was on the carpet the other day. Russell Crowe has this weird… It's not weird. He's like, “Should we show people our watches?” I'm like, Oh, this is kind of cringe. Russell, I love you because you're a watch collector, and I love the iconic tank watch. That is something that I've become a collector of. For someone who doesn't love the idea of time constraints, I do love wearing a beautiful Cartier watch and I don't think that will ever stop.

I’m coming back to you calling her Miss Winter, which was both formal and informal at the same time. I saw you sat next to her at the U.S. Open. Was that intentional or was that by complete accident?

We've become very good… can I say this… good friends?

Please.

I was just on the phone with her yesterday planning to go see a play in London together. I hope she doesn't mind me sharing our personal business.

I'm very curious what your experience of that side of the fashion world has been.

It's funny because I wore something once to the Met Gala, and I remember her looking me up and down and thinking, Uh oh, that's my last time here.

Which outfit was it?

It was 2013 when I saw all of those great villains walk out, and I wanted something that reminded me, or was reminiscent of that. I think Jimmy Fallon pointed this out, when we were inside. He goes, “You know you match the waiters in the room? I'd give you my coat but then I'd match the waiters. I was like, It's fine, actually. I'm just gonna embrace it

You were making a statement.

I ended up taking a picture with the entire staff that was helping us out, which was cool, and I got to know them. That was kind of a nice respite from… it's a very heavy room, so I do find myself in those certain social events… uh… sneaking away.

Even before a fashion shoot, I want to say hi to all the people who are putting everything together. Because they're doing it up to the last minute. And I guess I just love the work that goes into all of these aspects. And I don't think enough people get recognized. I mean, I'm reaching here with the waiter thing.

You have been in a string of, if I can call them, pretty serious movies. I read that you're going back to the musical genre with this new one, The Man I Love. Was that a nice departure from, let's say, the thriller, spy and action flicks? Or did it just feel like another role to play?

No, I wanted to sing again in something, sing on my own. I wanted to play guitar — I don't play guitar, but I was like: Go challenge yourself to pick up an instrument. It wasn't initially a musical, it just had songs in it, and had a character that I would be able to transform into within the movie. That created its own physicality.

Ira, the other day, texted me. He goes, “I'm watching dailies, and you're a jazz musician, and I think I just need to let you play.” I think I was starting to get maybe… I don't want to say pigeonholed, because it's not the right phrase, but perhaps I wasn't stretching myself as much as I could. With Nuremberg, I also get to play to my strengths, and I really felt like it was a departure for me and I wanted to keep going down that route.

The Man I Love wasn't a musical by design again but I think we found so many hidden talents in people, like Rebecca Hal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach, and Luther Ford. They all got something, Ira, well, he's very instinctual, and you don't know what's going to happen on the day, and so things began to evolve, and he would throw a song my way and I would learn it and it became a moment. And then there were moments when we would be talking about the cut, or what he saw in the edit, and he would say: “Maybe we're gonna lose that song.” I fell in love with that song, and how can we keep it! That's because you're missing this piece of coverage, and this piece of coverage, because we went on too late. Why don't we just go back and grab that…

I can be very good at convincing someone of something, plus perhaps these eyes do me a service in striking a certain tone that says, I would very much like that song back.

Did you get your way with Nuremberg?

This human being in Jamie Vanderbilt is just an unsung hero. He's written on so many great films, but his direction was immaculate. He's got such a gift for weaving — there I go again — complexity with clarity, and he just had this immense respect for history that was disseminated on all of us, who I think had it to begin with. A consummate professional and leader and to be able to deal with the likes of Michael and Russell myself and Slattery and Ren and Lydia and Leo? Yeah, that's a lot to handle. But he also knew how to delegate very well, with a designer like Eve Stewart, who is one of the all time greats with production design. That’s another thing I have a love affair with.

I'm being told that you have another thing. And if it's eating hot wings and you buried that lede, I'll be really sad.

How did you know it’s the hot wings? And I will probably melt in a hot second just to get out of it. I did consider doing it, I will say that. You’re getting a lot out of me, more than many have!

I have one story: Our costume designer, I remember searching through Budapest and finding this store and buying the boots myself because [the originals] weren’t perfect. Not trying to overstep, because he had found these gorgeous Japanese shoes and had them made, and I’m sure it was quite difficult to get those. But he allowed for that level of collaboration that I just adore. And I got to bring Jan Sewell on this film as well, who I’d done Bohemian Rhapsody with. She’s just extraordinary in her work.

I will leave it at that, unless you have anything else.

I don’t! And let me know what you decide about your Night at the Museum story. I think it's a fun anecdote, but it's up to you.

I don't mind. The world needs to know.