Dove Cameron and Avan Jogia Broke Their Molds

Dove Cameron and Avan Jogia are talking about evolution. Not biologically speaking; they are primarily concerned, at this very moment, with artistic evolution.

Cameron is partway through an answer about what led her to a role in the upcoming Prime Video thriller 56 Days: “I'm not the first person to come to the top of mind for a lot of producers for something like this, because I think a lot of people still see me through a near ancient lens at this point.” Jogia turns to Cameron then, broaching if he could interject to ask his own question. Cameron nods, and Jogia says: “I find it frustrating when they can't conceive of the evolution of an actor. Do you find that as well, or is it different for you?” Cameron nods again, and then considers her answer for a moment. “I do take small issues with people discrediting who you become, because they prefer who you were. So that is something that I do think is not industry specific.”

For Cameron, whose own evolution has been signposted by a successful, 15 year acting career, the impulse to box in former Disney stars like herself or Jogia (on Nickelodeon) can feel stifling. “Your true self, your true identity, all the work you did, all the shadow work you did, to get yourself to who you are, and then going back to 15, I actually do take an issue with that.”

The two are in lock step throughout the interview, mirroring the sharply written thriller they both star in. Adapted from the Catherine Ryan Howard of the same name, they play a couple whose passionate affair leads to the appearance of a mysterious, unidentifiable dead body. Cameron says she “fell in love with the character. I fell in love with the role, fell in love with the quality of it,” while Jogia credits the part with rekindling his love of acting. “As an actor, I've always been lucky to really stretch and go for stuff that pushes me, like doing Now Apocalypse with Gregg Araki, and doing stuff where I really push myself. But [56 Days] allowed me as an actor to get back in my body a little bit, and do the thing that I love to do.”

The last time PAPER caught up with Jogia, he was in the shadow of his directorial feature debut Door Mouse, in 2023. Cameron, that same year, was heralded by this magazine as having just reintroduced herself as a fully fledged musician and pop star. Back in the present, we are coming down on the back half a press junket together, and I have just asked what has changed for both since that time of perceived change in their careers. For Jogia, he tells PAPER: “I feel very lucky to have been able to have a career where I really have done almost everything that I've wanted to do. Just odd stuff that no one expected me to do.” He felt at the time, and still does, that this freedom has come with an acceptance that he must follow his gut, be his own master. “I'm going to make more films, put out more stuff, write more books. And without the pageantry or the acceptance, maybe, of these larger systems that are themselves crumbling.”

Cameron is, in her own way, perched on a similar precipice: victory in the long battle for musical freedom. In the weeks leading up to this conversation, she announced that her long awaited debut album was set to release later this year. “I have been talking about writing and planning an album for as long as I had been signed with my label, and I had aspirations for it way before that. And there was a very long stretch of time where they simply would not greenlight the album. It was done multiple times.” There were times she didn’t “even know if they heard some of the music.” While she doesn’t “really know what changed, she’s “hopeful that we are in a better position now.”

For more from that precipice, read our entire conversation below. (This interview has been edited.)

Which one of you would be better at hiding a body and/or which one of you would be better at getting away with murder?

Avan: Which one of us would be better at getting away with murder or hiding a body?

Dove: Practically? You are bigger. You would be better at hiding the body.

Avan: Oh yeah. I would have to do lifting is what you're saying. But you might have to come up with a plan.

Dove: I think I probably would have a better plan.

Avan: You would have a better plan than I would.

Dove: I don't know why. I just think women have foresight, creativity. Yeah, I'm in detail mode.

I was reading a little bit about the changes between the film and the book, and how the book actually takes place in the pandemic. The series has moved away from that, but I’m curious: how do you think your characters in the series would've fared if there was also a pandemic happening in the middle of this mystery?

Avan: Oh, I think not well. I think us being fused together in an apartment, and we don’t have the opportunity to leave one another if we were stuck in the same apartment. I just don't know…

Dove: It would be 24 days!

Avan: There'd be two bodies in the apartment.

Dove. I was looking back at an interview you did with us a few years ago. In 2023, the headline was: “Dove Cameron is reintroducing herself.” What has changed for you since that headline, or time in your life?

Dove: You said it was 2022?

2023 actually.

Dove: I love that they came up with that headline for me. How have I changed? I think when I was first introduced to the world on my children's television show, I was a very, very green, sort of dewy, still forming personality that was being directly spliced with the characters that I was playing, and the person that I knew Disney wanted me to be for them. So that was never any sort of final arrival, or really even an introduction. I had no idea what the fuck I was doing because I was a teenager. It was before Instagram. It was the year that Instagram started, and then I went through many, many bouts of reinvention. And then when that article came out, I had come out. I was no longer how people had perceived me, as this sort of heteronormative, straight girl next door. I was very clearly not that anymore. I was working mainly on music, and I was sort of in a space of emotional upheaval and emotional digging, and dark nights of the soul every other night. So I would also say that that was not a finished final form.

I think that no one's ever finished or final, but I think that where I'm at now is healthy. I feel really happy. I feel really happy and I feel really in my bones, in my body, settled into myself and present for the first time in a long time. It's crazy. It's crazy what being well does. And feel like I hadn't felt that way since I was a child.

I want to follow up that question too, because you recently revealed that you're finally putting out your debut album. I went back and I looked, and I didn't even realize you first appeared on the Billboard charts in 2013, and then you put out your debut single in 2019. How does it feel to both be at this place where you're finally going to have that out, but also, how does it feel, I guess, that it's been so long since you've been working to get it released?

Dove: I'm going to be honest, I have been talking about writing and planning an album for as long as I had been signed with my label, and I had aspirations for it way before that. And there was a very long stretch of time where they simply would not greenlight the album. It was done multiple times. It wasn't even about them not feeling that it was ready. I don't even know if they heard some of the music. I think it was just like, not now, not now, not now. God knows why. I have no idea why! And finally, recently, I had flagged like, Hey, we've released so many fucking singles and you still won't let me put out an album. I've released an album's worth of singles. And they were able to recontextualize that and go, oh, that's fair, let's do the album. That's kind of what happened. I was just begging, begging, begging openly, being like, what the hell? Where's the album? And they finally agreed. I don't really know what changed, but fingers crossed, I'm hopeful that we are in a better position now.

I was reminded of a cover story that I did with Halsey, in 2024, talking about also fighting to get labeled approval. And Avan, I read your story that you did with PAPER for Door Mouse, where you made a similar comment about feeling like Hollywood and the industry doesn't respect you for the kind of art you want to do. You felt pigeonholed into making art about identity over any other kind of thing. Do both of you feel like you're at a place in your career now where you get to do more of the kind of work you want to do? Or, like Dove was talking about, do you still feel like you're struggling to convince people to let you make that kind of art?

Avan: I think my whole personal opinion on this has shifted some, in the way that… I think that with the infrastructure of Hollywood itself sort of crumbling, there is no pipeline, there is no pathway. And I just feel like what my instincts told me at the time, when I started to make my own independent film outside of the Hollywood system, is that we just have to work outside of the system. I think that when we ask for the stamp of approval, we all just want that stamp of approval. We're like, yeah, I want my work to be stamped by the people in power. The people you assume can pull the levers and let the thing reach the audience that you want it to. I think when you place so much faith in them to do that for you, it’s at the expense of being able to just deliver on the promises you made to yourself. It’s just… my masters have changed.

I think that I was still holding, subtly, inside of myself that: at some point I have to make something and they're to really love it and they're going to accept it and they're going to put the gas in the engine that is going to make people see this. And I just think that moving outside of that realm, and making your own things, being the master of your own destiny in that regard… I feel very lucky to have been able to have a career where I really have done almost everything that I've wanted to do. Just odd stuff that no one expected me to do. I just got to continue doing that. I'm going to make more films, put out more stuff, write more books. And without the pageantry or the acceptance, maybe, of these larger systems that are themselves crumbling.

It'd be different if they were really doing great, and they had such a well organized plan, but they've proven to me that maybe they don't actually know what they're talking about. They really trade on the illusion that they know. They hold the secret knowledge of what will actually resonate with people, and the truth is they actually don't.

You mentioned you've gotten to do so many different things in your career, and even some that people haven't expected of you. Now that you're at this vantage point, looking back at all of it, is there something that you're like, I really want to pour myself into that again? Or do you always see yourself as a jack of all trades pursuing it all at the same time?

Avan: I think that part of doing this show is reminding myself that I really do love to act. I think in recent years, I was becoming a little bit, I don't know… not as challenged, not as in love with what I was being offered to do. As an actor, I've always been lucky to really stretch and go for stuff that pushes me, like doing Now Apocalypse with Gregg Araki, and doing stuff where I really push myself. But [56 Days] allowed me as an actor to get back in my body a little bit, and do the thing that I love to do while simultaneously doing the other things I love to do. I produced a film, How to Shoot a Ghost, directed by Charlie Kaufman. Jessie Buckley's in it, and it went to Venice.

Again, being more of a master of making stuff, and being a part of making stuff, that I really want to do, and getting to direct some more films. This show really turned the switch back on for me as it pertains to how I got in the game, man. I really loved acting.

Dove, same question for you. What was it that drew you to this role?

Dove: I think that I don't often get seen as someone who would step in and play this role. I'm not the first person to come to the top of mind for a lot of producers for something like this, because I think a lot of people still see me through a near ancient lens at this point. I try not to be frustrated by it, because I actually deeply understand having a connection to an actor from your childhood, how they were at the time. But, I do get a little frustrated when there's still this hangover. I'm thinking: I'm going to be 35, I'm going to be 40, and people are going to be like, you look better blonde. Get rid of the tattoo. Sing us a song. I dunno what to do at this point to differentiate myself from the characters that I became so synonymous with.

I love Karyn Usher to bits, our showrunner. She and I had met when I was a child, way before Disney, and she presented me with this as a stone cold offer. And it came along absolutely out of nowhere, with no context. And Karyn just called me and said, “Hey, I know you haven't seen me in 15 years. I never forgot about you. Would you ever consider reading this?” And I fell in love with the character. I fell in love with the role, fell in love with the quality of it and working with Karyn and Lisa and everybody. It was just literally perfect. And I also felt deeply honored that they would think I was capable of this, and then to hopefully prove them right.

Avan: Can I ask you a question?

Dove: Yeah.

Avan: I think my frustration is never with people, or fans, or people watching the show, who have an attachment to a character that is so beloved to them. But I do find that industry people… I find it frustrating when they can't conceive of the evolution of an actor. Do you find that as well, or is it different for you?

Dove: No, I think it is that. That's why I started by saying I deeply understand having an emotional connection to an actor from a childhood.

Avan: It's like industry people can't think of the next step.

Dove: But I also think it's definitely that. I think when someone who's casting something can't see you in any versatile way. I don't know, it's a global thing too, because I do take small issue with people discrediting who you become, because they prefer who you were. So that is something that I do think is not industry specific. Your true self, your true identity, all the work you did, all the shadow work you did, to get yourself to who you are, and then going back to 15, I actually do take an issue with that.

Avan: I really like who the person I've become.

Dove: Right. That's the other thing, because there's a difference between a fan who's like, I loved you then, and that's what means something to me and I support you now. That's different. You hang on to the thing that you love. There is a kind of an attitude of not wanting Disney girls to ever become anything else. And I think it's deeply rooted in some fucked up things. And so while not bringing fan bases into it, bringing in the general public, I take issue with it and I'm willing to speak on it.

For this next question, it's going to sound like I'm to ask one question. I promise that is not the question I'm asking, so bear with me. In the last few years, there was a giant conversation about child actors. And I have spoken to many people who grew up as actors, who felt almost stifled by the conversation, because suddenly all of this attention is being brought back to something that, like you both have said, you've moved on from. You've changed as people, you've grown. Now that the conversation is waning slightly, do you feel like some of the pressure has been lifted? Did you pay attention to it at all, or did you just have to keep your eyes forward?

Avan: I'm hopeful that that whole circus of attention expands people's empathy a little bit more. That's my goal. My hope is that watching that all go down and seeing that we were humans at the time, and complicated humans at the time. Now that the sort of din around that conversation has relaxed a little bit, maybe they can see us, and root for us to expand and change, knowing where we come from and how long we've been at this, and what we did to get to where we're at now and to still be here.

Dove: I think that there's a very loving quality to it, because I have a lot of fans who have stuck with me from a very young age, and I feel that it is extremely loving, the way that they have been like, “I came because of this, but my connection with you is a human one.” It's not about how you look, what color your hair is, what projects you're working on. There's a true sort of fandom, that is based in a kind of human love connection that I think is really special. And I am deeply moved by it, and touched by it all the time. And it doesn't require anyone to bend into shapes or fold into smaller boxes.

Avan: You can be expansive and you can be yourself.

Dove: You can be expansive. And that's really the issue that I have with a lot of it: it's gotten so much better for us, I think. But it was so bad in the generation before us, this idea that if we meet actors when they're young, or performers of any kind when they're young, that they are not supposed to evolve or grow up or mature in any way, and that any version of that is like a betrayal to the audience or an abandonment of sorts.

Avan: It hurts a lot of people's psyches.

Dove: It’s not loving, it infantilizes you.

Avan: There's so many people before the generation above us where it hurt them, and their lives became painful, because they were not able to fully step into their power as a person.

Dove: So yes, I do think it's definitely gotten better, but I do think it's an interesting thing to talk about sociologically, not just fame and fans. It's interesting.

Avan: I think our fans are always going to be like, we really like you, but hopefully the general person on the street is going to root for people who come from our particular artistic backgrounds, enough to value that.

Getting back to the series for this last question, what is something that you hope either your longtime fans or new fans, viewers of this series, take away from 56 Days?

Dove: I think I'm just excited for people to see. I know this sounds like an absolute cop out, but the show in general is a really special little gem. I think Karen and Lisa are amazing showrunners, and did a phenomenal job on this thing. I think Catherine Ryan Howard, who wrote the book, did a fantastic job of world building. I think that it's just a very special little blend of many genres, while also breaking rules of those genres. I just really hope people like the show.

Avan: I hope they're able to connect with it. I know we talked a lot about fans and stuff like that. I really do hope it's a continuation of people being able to look at this show and go, oh, that was great. I really enjoy it. Especially in a world right now where we're all just looking for a really good escapism. I hope this show is that for people. It was just so much fun for us to do.