The Artful Dodger

With his gentle good looks, cunning reserve and hip vérité attitude, Gus Van Sant seems like the kind of guy I'd have been friends with in college -- the fact that he lives in Portland, Oregon (and has for about 20 years), only heightens the impression. He has made edgy, celebrated independent films (Drugstore Cowboy, My Own Private Idaho, To Die For) and feel-good, successful Hollywood films (Good Will Hunting, which was nominated for nine Academy Awards, including Best Director, with wins for best supporting actor Robin Williams and Best Original Screenplay by Matt Damon and Ben Affleck; and Finding Forrester, starring Sean Connery and Anna Paquin), but in the end, there's no place like Portland for Van Sant: "It's out of the way, and it's very charming."

In March, the director-filmmaker will unveil his latest in a growing oeuvre of small, semi-unscripted films featuring nonprofessional actors that started with 2003's Elephant, based on the 1999 Columbine shootings. Paranoid Park, which Van Sant adapted from a novel by Blake Nelson and was cast, in part, by way of an open call posted on MySpace.com, stars amateur skateboarder and first-time actor Gabe Nevins as Alex, a teenager who struggles with his involvement in the killing of a security guard at a hardcore skate park in Portland. The film co-stars Taylor Momsen of TV's Gossip Girl, as well as Jake Miller, another unknown.

Van Sant's good friend Christopher Doyle served as DP on the film -- the two have been friends since Doyle shot Van Sant's 1998 remake of Psycho. "He's a very big character," says Van Sant of the notoriously wild, super-prolific, Hong Kong-based cinematographer. Doyle was also one of Van Sant's principal "advisors" for Park (and makes an appearance in the film as well), along with actors Scott Green and M. Blash (who both also appear in the film). "They're all close friends. They're all in the business of sorts. All three have strong opinions," Van Sant says. "I would show them the [possible] cast members and ask them which one was the best."

The film is eerily nuanced, slow and impactful, creating a kind of uneasiness between the audience and the characters -- you wonder as you watch if in some way you are connected to or responsible for the unaccountable behavior, the clouded reactions, and the clear desertion of these kids. Park was awarded the 60th Anniversary Award at Cannes 2007 and, although he claims not to think much about his celebrity, Van Sant does not appear particularly uncomfortable as his handler guides him toward me for our interview in that way that handlers do -- embodying with eager deference all that stands between the man and his myth.

As we talk at a small corner table in Harry's Bar in the Helmsley Park Lane Hotel, Van Sant sips a Coke and gives answers to my questions that are much like his most recent bunch of movies -- inferential, carefully honest and ambitious in an understated, laconic sort of way.

Rebecca Carroll: I read an interview you did a few years ago where you said that you seemed to have better results by not manipulating the real world. Isn't trying to capture the real world inherently manipulative?

Gus Van Sant: Yeah, because you make decisions that show it in a certain way. But I think [in that article] I was talking about art direction, and that it's better to keep the design the way that it is. Like this bar [where we're sitting] -- if you're going to shoot in this bar and leave it like it is, [then] it's got something of the real world about it. But if your art director changes it -- he might change the stools, the carpeting and the drapes -- all of a sudden it becomes something else.

RC: It becomes a set.

GVS: Right, it becomes a set. And what I try and do is not touch it. Well, that's what I've been trying to do in the last few movies. Part of it was because we didn't have money to do stuff like that. I just always have the question: Why are we manipulating certain parts of the real world? Sometimes you're doing it because it's a period film, but other times you're doing it just because. It's a control thing. The art department has this overall scheme. So in the last few movies we didn't really have an art department. And I think they look fine. Do you make [a film] look worse by interfering? And in some cases, you do.

RC: You just mentioned not having the money to make a certain kind of film. You could have gone in a totally different direction with your career. Why the films the way that you make them? Gerry, Elephant, Last Days, and now this one -- I mean, these are true art films. They're not even "Indie-wood" films.

GVS: Indie-wood? I've never heard that word. Starting with which film?

RC: Of course Mala Noche was amazing, and then you did Drugstore Cowboy, Private Idaho, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues, To Die For -- so maybe Gerry?

GVS: I wanted to go back and capture something that was happening in Mala Noche; small, with a less professional cast. The stories, though, are pretty mainstream -- Gerry, Elephant, Last Days and Paranoid Park could all be "big" movies, but the style of making them was just our design. In some cases that [has] meant casting real people, not really having a shooting script, using real locations, not really lighting the set.

RC: There's an early scene in Paranoid Park where you're shooting at the skate park, which is really Burnside skate park, at night -- obviously, you've set it up for a shot, it isn't documentary -- but it felt spooky-real. Had you been to the park at night before to observe?

GVS: I knew about it because it's like the most famous skate park in the world, and because it's kind of a lawless place where people skate and [are] very territorial. It was made about thirteen years ago by skaters illegally under a bridge -- they poured the cement themselves. So when I read the story [Blake Nelson's novel Paranoid Park], I realized there was a skate park under the Burnside Bridge. And so we did go visit, but the first time was really because of the film.

RC: How did the skaters respond to you?

GVS: I didn't go into the bowl or anything. I was watching from the sides so it was fine. I didn't go on a crowded day. And then we contacted the people that had built it -- guys who were sort of caretakers of the space, some who were in the film.

RC: What was it like working with Gabe?

GVS: Chris [Doyle] really adamantly was like, "Pick that guy!" And then Scott [Green] was like, "Yeah, that guy." So we decided on Gabe, but it was kind of scary, because he hadn't been in a movie before and we were worried that it would be too hard for him.

RC: What did Gabe think?

GVS: He was scared, too. He was worried that he wouldn't be able to do it. But it worked out.

RC: Had he been to Burnside? Was he freaked out about going or did he not know about it?

GVS: No, he hadn't. And yeah, it's scary at Burnside for young skaters -- it's really intimidating, because the other skaters are, like, rough and old and scary.

RC: I noticed in the film that you use an Elliott Smith song, and I wondered -- I mean, I don't know, but my sense is that you were friends -- did you choose that music because you wanted to include him somehow?

GVS: Well, I had met him socially first, because my boyfriend worked with his girlfriend in a bar. So I met him at a birthday party, and then later I called him to show him the movie [Good Will Hunting].

RC: And so the song that you chose for Paranoid Park?

GVS: I was just mixing and matching different things. I put it in there and I liked it. It's really sort of a collage.

RC: I'm glad you said that about collage, because I know you went to RISD and I was curious about what kind of art and artists interest you?

GVS: Well, I just read this Kara Walker article in The New Yorker. I like her stuff.

RC: She's incredible.

GVS: She's pretty amazing. It was interesting reading the story, because when you see really good work like that it looks so easy. And then you realize it was a process, and she didn't just wake up and do that.

RC: I actually look at her work in a totally different way. I look at one of her silhouettes and think, "Oh, my God, the angst."

GVS: Yeah, I mean, you see that which would suggest it wasn't simple, but part of the art is to make it natural and loose. It's a loose gesture. I think when artists get that good they make [their work] look easy. That's part of the appeal. Whether it's a visual artist or a singer.

RC: What about music? What kind of music do you listen to?

GVS: I usually listen to jazz stations.

RC: Do you have an iPod?

GVS: Yeah, I have one and I sometimes use it, but I haven't mastered it. I just learned how to bunch songs together.

RC: I'm not even that far.

GVS: You just have them on there?

RC: Yeah.

GVS: You can make playlists -- take all your songs from one artist and bunch them together.

RC: So have you made a playlist yet?

GVS: Yeah, it's not music that I've chosen; it's music that came from the office computer that was downloaded by Scott [Green]. So there is a lot of Joy Division.

RC: Back to movies -- so, ultimately, how do you feel about this latest film, Paranoid Park? Do you like it? Are you happy with it?

GVS: Yeah, but I don't really have a lot of conceptions about it for some reason, and I'm not sure why that is.

RC: Different than with your other films?

GVS: All the other films, I have ideas about what they are. And this is the first one that I didn't really have an opinion about, which is weird. I just hear people say stuff about it and I go, "Oh, OK."

RC: I wonder why?

GVS: Maybe I've broken through. Or maybe I'm just at an age where I don't have such attachments.

RC: Like you could just make it and then let it go?

GVS: Or maybe because I wasn't trying to make it do a particular thing. I do have opinions about Elephant and Gerry and Last Days.

RC: What about Last Days? Were you a Nirvana fan?

GVS: Yeah.

RC: And did you know Kurt Cobain well?

GVS: No, not well. I'd met him once, and I'd talked to him a couple times on the phone. I met him at his manager's house. I was doing a fundraiser [against the] anti-gay ballot measure in Oregon. [Kurt's] manager, Danny Goldberg, who is a big activist, helped us put together an L.A. fundraiser -- like a movie-star fundraiser. And the night before, [Danny] had us over to dinner, and Kurt and Courtney showed up. Courtney is from Portland, so we have a lot of friends in common. And then later Kurt played a fundraiser in Portland for the same issue.

RC: And are you friendly with Courtney still?

GVS: Yeah, I've seen her off and on. I run into her.

RC: Did you see Nick Broomfield's documentary Kurt & Courtney?

GVS: I remember that [Kurt & Courtney] was sort of the pinnacle [of his career], wasn't it?

RC: Yeah, but what do you think of his approach, particularly with that film?

GVS: I think that it's an example of how far you can go. It's a little like Michael Moore. I'm totally entertained by it.

RC: Do you have a theory about Kurt's death?

GVS: I've never really thought that there was a strict conspiracy. I think it was a weird situation, which is kind of why I made [Last Days]. There were a lot of mixed emotions surrounding his death. And there was this missing period of time during the last few days [of Kurt's life] when people who were around hadn't said anything, and the people that were around either weren't allowed to talk or just didn't talk. I also thought that perhaps not very much did happen. And because it was a mystery, because it was hidden, it became very interesting. But it's possible that if you really knew what happened, it might not be that interesting.

RC: Right.

GVS: Our film is sort of about [Kurt] wandering around and occasionally running into people. And that was it. He was found dead. We didn't really say how he died -- because we didn't really know.

RC: You're not really into the entertainment factor with your films, are you?

GVS: Well, I think that they can be entertaining. I just wasn't into results. There are too many answers concerning Kurt. Obviously, he had lots of things about him that indicated that this might happen.

RC: Lots of indicia.

GVS: Indicia?

RC: It's a real word.

GVS: Indicia. That's a good word. Now I can use it. Yeah, so it's really about those things -- little indications, indicia. Like with Elephant, originally we were going to make it solely about high-school violence, but it really became more about the kids themselves, just existing. You see these things drifting by, and the time it takes to look at these things allows you the time to go over the indicia and contribute thoughts of your own -- participate in a result with yourself, not necessarily with the film telling you what the results are.

RC: And these two issues [Columbine and the death of Kurt Cobain] are very delicate.

GVS: They're really delicate. I wanted to include the ideas of the viewers as well. So, if you were a psychologist and you're watching it, your ideas could actually be part of the film, rather than be discounted. There are so many varieties of information. If I said [about the shooters at Columbine] that they were told they were outsiders and that they would always be outsiders, and they became despondent and decided to kill themselves, but while they were at it they figured, 'We're gonna kill ourselves, why don't we take as many people as we can with us, 'cause we hate them' -- and that's probably the theory I would put forth -- if I'm so busy putting that forth...

RC: You'd maybe miss the actual --

GVS: Well, I'd miss all the other possibilities.